Matter

[Deep Black]

As this bit of the new forum is looking a bit left out I though I'd post up a link to a Matter review (not mine)

Seems quite balanced:

http://www.sffworld.com/brevoff/418.html

[phazedout]

interesting DP
I found no part of Matter pedestrian, I recently re-read it and found it as compelling as the first time.
Phaze
on the "forced to disagree with the review and do not know where the whole slow thing came from" ID

[Deep Black]

I liked all the stuff away from the Shellworld.
I liked the Shellworld itself.
I liked the interaction between the various species.
I liked the archeological stuff & that big waterfall.

I was less taken with the war between levels
& all the Medieval-esqe ruling family stuff.

Unfortunatly those last 2 bits seemed to take up more of the book than my first 4 points.

[Conscious Bob]

The Culture Universe was widened out quite a bit in this book.

The Culture no longer has the wow factor with the introduction of the Morthanveld.

I wonder if he'll use the Morthanveld again, or the Idirans, or the Chelgrians, or the Affront.

Hmm, probably not.

[Deep Black]

I hope so, I liked the Culture having peers.

Plus, being another high involved, the Morthanveld probably have more longevity & scope than the other species you mentioned.

[RedKing]

The prologue was good, the ending was good, the intermediate xty hundred pages, not so.

[rac]

I liked the Culture having peers.

Yeah- that was something I liked in it too.

At the time of reading, I didn't like the ending as it seemed to make a nonsense of the hundreds of pages that had went before- but on reflection, I think the end was great.

[Deep Black]

The prologue was good
The only trouble with that was I heard Iain read it through about 3 time & got bored with it

[tenchiten]

I enjoyed it but the medeval thing put me off a bit. Also I was expecting a bit more at the end of the book when the Iln and the Xinthian met in the machine core.

[Big Orange]

Matter was somewhat bloated (though not as bloated as Excession or The Algebraist) and not especially ground breaking, but it was a very solid read and I flew through it within two weeks.

[GSV Not Really Listening]

I really enjoyed it, but I have so many questions about it. I don't know if TMH intended for certain things to be unresolved or if I'm being dim. I was going to start a thread up in the hope folks might enlighten me.

[Big Orange]

I'm a relative new comer to Iain Banks' sci-fi novels so I guess I can maintain my momemtum of interest in them no matter how recent or old they are without burning out.

[iansales]

I wrote a review of Matter on my blog early last year - see here (http://justhastobeplausible.blogspot.com/2008/02/heart-of-matter.html).

[Deep Black]

Nice one, though personally I prefered The Algebraist.

[Big Orange]

iansales, I don't think there have been revisions to Culture that are genuinely harmful and contradictory, since why would an AI run civilization not have a cyberspace? And in Consider Phlebas the trapped Mind could easily have had nano-machines if it could deploy drones or fix machinery.

[iansales]

It's not how they fit within the universe of the Culture, it's the way they're introduced to the universe as a fictional construct. If nano-tech is not mentioned in Consider Phlebas, then it never existed. To pretend it did is "retconning". Some sf authors prder a degree of flexibility in their world-building. John Varley and Alastair Reynolds spring to mind as examples - both have said they see no need to stick slavishly to aspects of the universe they built for earlier novels. If they have a better idea, they'll use that. That was the point I was making in my review.

[GSV Not Really Listening]

If nano-tech is not mentioned in Consider Phlebas, then it never existed. To pretend it did is "retconning".

That's overly simplistic. 'Infinite Fun Space' isn't mentioned in CP either, but there is nothing to contradict its existence in the Culture universe either. IFS being discussed in Excession is not retconning.

A 'hierarchy' of civs isn't exactly new anyway. It's been hinted at since CP and PoG with the Idirans being proteges of the Homomda and Homomdan interference in Azad. It's true we suddenly see a lot more of other involveds in Matter, but there's a big Universe out there to write about. I don't see any retconning. In fact TMH has acknowledged that Culture novels tend to focus on a very thin slice of the Culture itself because Contact and SC are interesting, whereas most of the rest is just content people living out happy and fulfilled lives (yawn). Just because he hasn't written about that doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Big Orange]

Consider Phlebas occurred several centuries before Matter, so there is no real surprise that the Culture has made technological advances and refinements, but nothing that really leaps up at me, and it has always been implied the Culture is not the most prominmant power in the known Universe if there is the Homomda (likely similar in standing to the Morthanveld) and the Dra'Azon (a Sublimed race who can do almost anything, with one Dra'Azon individual who held off an entire Idiran armada) introduced in the first Culture novel.

What puts me off is the Culture's arrogance in believing the Morthanveld Commonwealth is not as advanced as them, despite the fact the Morthanveld attained FTL travel nearly half a million years ago and firmly govern half the Milky Way.

[Deep Black]

But the damn fools don't rely on AIs.

Maybe the Morthanveld know something that the "human" culture members don't about the future of AI lead societies?

[RedKing]

With a chill, Horza recalled the insect which had settled momentarily on his wrist in the smallbay outside, just before he had boarded the CAT. The Culture, he knew, had machines - artificial bugs - that size.

I'm assuming that some form of nano-tech is used to build such things.

Also, the description of the repairs and constructs by the drone Sisela Ytheleus in Excession, as well as the audit of "two hundred and forty one-millimetre-long nanomissiles" leads me to think that the tech was available long before Look To Windward.

[iansales]

That's overly simplistic. 'Infinite Fun Space' isn't mentioned in CP either, but there is nothing to contradict its existence in the Culture universe either. IFS being discussed in Excession is not retconning.

The Culture is a fictional universe. All that exists of it exists in the pages of books. Everything else is your own extrapolation. So if Banks didn't mention something in an earlier book, it didn't exist. That's not simplistic, that's the nature of creativity. If he then implies it existed earlier, then he's indulging in a form of retconning. I'm not saying retconning is a bad thing - some flexibility in world-building is good. But if you say it's not contradicted therefore it could have existed, then that's your imagination at work not Banks's.

[Old Vig]

***Spoiler alert****

























In excession the culture agent aboard the sleeper service was using single molecules to encode messages it wanted to send out to the other ships. If that isn't nanoscale technology I don't know what is.

[GSV Not Really Listening]

Iansales:
Maybe it's just a question of interpretations, but to me 'retconning' implies a degree of contradiction of things that were stated to be true. It can be blatant cheating or a subtle bending using weasly-words but it amounts to backing out of the road you turned down while trying to convince the reader that you never really made that turn.

Just because TMH didn't publish the Culture Universe Grand Unified Encyclopedia and Bestiary up-front doesn't mean he's disregarding canon by writing about things that were off-screen in CP.

[Conscious Bob]

The Culture is a fictional universe. All that exists of it exists in the pages of books. Everything else is your own extrapolation. So if Banks didn't mention something in an earlier book, it didn't exist. That's not simplistic, that's the nature of creativity. If he then implies it existed earlier, then he's indulging in a form of retconning. I'm not saying retconning is a bad thing - some flexibility in world-building is good. But if you say it's not contradicted therefore it could have existed, then that's your imagination at work not Banks's.

That's a very strange point of view, I don't see how you can renconcile this to any book let alone the Culture.

Yes the Culture is a fictional universe.

As the author is still writing the books then the author reserves the right to embellish the story with each successive book, the obvious pitfall is contradiction.

It's a story, that's the whole point. To say that something doesn't exist in a previous book because it was first mentioned in a later one is to admit a difficulty in understanding stories.

I'll give you another example. A magic ring is mentioned in The Hobbit, later in the Lord of The Rings the magic ring becomes 'The Ring'. It's the same ring but it's history and attributes were written in the Lord of the Rings not the Hobbit.

[Big Orange]

The Culture and the Universe it is set in is Banks' baby so he do what he wants with it, but he hasn't done anything to make the long-term continuity for the Culture books very rubbery like it is in Marvel comic books, Bond movies, Star Trek to a lesser extent, and Doctor Who.

Also I don't think there were contradictions in the political and cultural landscape depicted in Matter either, with the new races inhabiting familiar niches with the Morthanveld most likely a direct peer to the Homomda, the Nariscene comparable to the Idirans (they could eventually clash with SC if they like to start wars amongst minor races), and the Oct most likely comparable to the Affront.

[iansales]

To say that something doesn't exist in a previous book because it was first mentioned in a later one is to admit a difficulty in understanding stories.

Er, no it's not. To imagine it existed in the earlier book, despite not being mentioned, is the imagination of the reader at work. Unless you have canonical evidence that said artefact existed in a previous book - i.e., a direct quote - then you're extrapolating.

But, like I said, this isn't a bad thing.

[iansales]

Iansales:
Maybe it's just a question of interpretations, but to me 'retconning' implies a degree of contradiction of things that were stated to be true. It can be blatant cheating or a subtle bending using weasly-words but it amounts to backing out of the road you turned down while trying to convince the reader that you never really made that turn.

I suppose the variety I mentioned is a lesser type.


Just because TMH didn't publish the Culture Universe Grand Unified Encyclopedia and Bestiary up-front doesn't mean he's disregarding canon by writing about things that were off-screen in CP.

The canon is what he's written, and it becomes canon on the day of publication. If you're being canonical about it. Yes, you can say it magically backfills and can be supposed to have been in existence since the beginning. But you can't say it was always there. Because it wasn't.

[GSV Not Really Listening]

But that's not 'reconning', which is retroactively adjusting your continuity to account for the things you've changed your mind about. It's just publishing your works a novel at a time rather than leaving it all for a compendium when you're 80.

[Conscious Bob]

Er, no it's not. To imagine it existed in the earlier book, despite not being mentioned, is the imagination of the reader at work. Unless you have canonical evidence that said artefact existed in a previous book - i.e., a direct quote - then you're extrapolating.

But, like I said, this isn't a bad thing.

You're perfectly correct but storytellers add to their stories and by your straightforward reasoning, the Affront and the Excession don't exist in Consider Phlebas, the Chelgrians don't exist in Excession and the Morthenveld, shellworlds and nestworlds don't exist in Look To Windward.

Your point is therefore absurd.

Anyway as Redking has provided you with evidence, your nanotech example doesn't even fit your own point.

[iansales]

But that's not 'reconning', which is retroactively adjusting your continuity to account for the things you've changed your mind about. It's just publishing your works a novel at a time rather than leaving it all for a compendium when you're 80.

From the Wikipedia definition of "retcon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon)" - Some retcons do not directly contradict previously established facts, but "fill in" missing background details, usually to support current plot points.

[iansales]

You're perfectly correct but storytellers add to their stories and by your straightforward reasoning, the Affront and the Excession don't exist in Consider Phlebas, the Chelgrians don't exist in Excession and the Morthenveld, shellworlds and nestworlds don't exist in Look To Windward.

Correct. They don't exist. Because, guess what, it's not a real universe. It's allowed to be fuzzy round the edges, and have big holes scattered throughout it. That doesn't invalidate it as a fictional creation. But to pretend it's something else, that all additions retroactively fill out the universe of earlier works... If you reread Consider Phlebas or Use of Weapons and believe there are unmentioned shellworlds scattered throughout the universe of the book, then that's you the reader indulging in an act of imagination. The author did not put it on the page.

What's absurd about making that point?

[charismatic megafauna]

Let's not get hung up on arguing trivialities. We are talking about a series of novels here. IMB has stayed relatively faithful to his original vision, mostly fleshing it out not adding lots of inconsistencies (ala Star Trek for instance). Just because a species, technology, or idea isn't mentioned in an earlier novel doesn't mean those things couldn't have existed at the time. It's a big, big galaxy/universe. I learn something new and exciting about our tiny little world almost daily. Doesn't mean it introduces inconsistencies into the world, just makes it more interesting and unique.

As to whether nanotech was used in Consider Phlebus, I'd argue that it had to be available at least since the introduction of the Minds, which seem to be assembled on an atomic, or perhaps sub-atomic, level. It's lack of use by that one particular Mind can be explained by the damage it absorbed both physical and mental. Also the female Culture agent (name escapes me) has a tiny little gun(?!) with a big bang that can only be explained as a work of nanotech.

[iansales]

I agree that the "discussion" was getting out of hand.

[Conscious Bob]

Correct. They don't exist. Because, guess what, it's not a real universe. It's allowed to be fuzzy round the edges, and have big holes scattered throughout it. That doesn't invalidate it as a fictional creation. But to pretend it's something else, that all additions retroactively fill out the universe of earlier works... If you reread Consider Phlebas or Use of Weapons and believe there are unmentioned shellworlds scattered throughout the universe of the book, then that's you the reader indulging in an act of imagination. The author did not put it on the page.

What's absurd about making that point?

Okay, I'll give you retcon as I understand it.

Reading a novel is 'indulging in an act of imagination'.

When an author introduces a new artifact in a later book in a series, the reader incorporates it into the greater story. My point is the author invites the reader to do so by giving the reader cues such as the same setting and the mention of previous events. So yes, it's an act of imagination but not without guidance.

So therefore 'all additions retroactively fill out the universe of earlier works'.

The problem I have with your definition is that you say that only one imagination is at work - the readers. In actual fact because the author guides the reader, the author's imagination is fully engaged with the reader, both parties are partipating in this process.

[iansales]

The problem I have with your definition is that you say that only one imagination is at work - the readers. In actual fact because the author guides the reader, the author's imagination is fully engaged with the reader, both parties are partipating in this process.

Now that's an interesting point - is world-building a process which involves both author and reader? Given the current fashion for immersion in genre fiction, I can understand how a need for active engagement by the reader's imagination is desirable, but... but... I can see how it's a good thing because it enriches the reading experience; I can even see how an author might find it desirable because it deepens the universe of their story... But I can't really see how the author can actively participate in the process. What's on the page is on the page.

[Conscious Bob]

Now that's an interesting point - is world-building a process which involves both author and reader? Given the current fashion for immersion in genre fiction, I can understand how a need for active engagement by the reader's imagination is desirable, but... but... I can see how it's a good thing because it enriches the reading experience; I can even see how an author might find it desirable because it deepens the universe of their story... But I can't really see how the author can actively participate in the process. What's on the page is on the page.

Oh, the author is a participant most definitely otherwise retcon wouldn't work.

As to how the author participates you've given the answer yourself.

'What's on the page is on the page'

To explain, the book is the interface between the author and the reader. The author is active, telling the reader the story, the reader is passive absorbing the information.

When reading, the reader often comes to a chapter where it becomes advantageous to turn back to an earlier chapter such as an unexpected plot twist or the appearance of an earlier character. It's not necessary but the author expects that the reader may backtrack in order to have a fuller understanding of the current chapter. As a reader you'll do this all the time when reading a book and not give it a second thought.

Retcon is exactly that process, only you're not referring to an earlier chapter... You're referring to an earlier book.

It's not necessary, it might not have anything to do with the current story, but what's on the page is on the page.

[iansales]

the author expects that the reader may backtrack in order to have a fuller understanding of the current chapter

I disagree with this - no author can write a book expecting the reader to refer to earlier sections. And no editor will publish a book in which a reader has to do that.


Retcon is exactly that process, only you're not referring to an earlier chapter... You're referring to an earlier book.

It's not necessary, it might not have anything to do with the current story, but what's on the page is on the page.

Okay, let's say book A is set on the planet of Glob, and describes Glob and its Globbians in great detail. Then book B is published, and it mentions that Glob has a twin planet called Glub. The reader will infer that Glub existed in book A, although there's no mention of it. But the writer hadn't invented Glub when they wrote book A... so how can they have participated in the act of imagination which puts Glub in A?

[Deep Black]

no author can write a book expecting the reader to refer to earlier sections
I find myself doing that all the time, especially for Characters & places. This is why some more complex books have a Glossery/index (like in Matter)

[iansales]

I think the glossary in Matter was only there to hide the epilogue, though. There's no other reason why that novel should have one and earlier Culture novels shouldn't.

In fact, there are few sf novels these days which have glossaries. Some fantasy novels do, but not sf. The most famous example is probably Dune... which is over 40 years old.

[edash]

Ian, your review has certainly sparked some interesting and perhaps heated debate, but I think the discussion deserves a separate thread in the "M" section.

[Coral Beach]

I think the glossary in Matter was only there to hide the epilogue, though.

I had a similar thought - I think the glossary serves to bring the (non-epilogue) ending forward, making it more surprising by increasing the page count and thereby mislead the reader. The reader thinks, 'great, still so many pages to turn, enough for defeating the Iln and to answer all the open que... huh, that's it, the rest is all glossary?' At least that's how it worked for me. ;)

[Sleeper Service]

I must admit that I did not enjoy Matter as much as I have enjoyed Bank's previous sci-fi novels.

I've always found Bank's writings most appealing trait is it's effortless, and most of the time seamless, blending of sweeping cultural and contemporary issues and references with just plain damn good writing. What left me slightly cold as regards Matter is that this seeming effortlessness was replaced by another feeling of the references being a tiny bit laboured, the plot being to obviously contrived to allow Bank's to philosophically freestyle on contemporary culture, at the expense of the usual underpinnings of a great story.

In short: I felt that the usual order of story first, social commentary second had been reversed and the book had sadly suffered for it. In other words: he tried too hard to do something that seemed (but probably wasn't in the writing process) so easy before.

While, in my opinion, this dip in form still leaves Bank's leaps and bounds beyond any other current science fiction author it means I will b even more eagerly awaiting his next offering.

N.B. I see some of you knocking Excession here and I will have you know that it is one of my favourites and any attempts to disparage it will be met utter indignation, shock and probably some not inconsiderable sulking :p

[RedKing]

I think the kerfuffle in TMH's life had an effect on the writing of Matter and probably Garbedale as well.

[Adamus]

I actually enjoyed the 'medieval'-bits of the book a lot. More than the space-faring bits actually. I was a bit confused by the sudden appearance of so many new Involved species whereas in earlier novels I got the impression that the Culture was one of only a scarce few massively powerful civilizations.

Having re-read "Look to Windward" recently I can only conclude that my earlier assumption about Culture hegemony is thoroughly flawed, as that novel makes mention of 'dozens or more' of high-level Involved civilizations. They're just not mentioned in most Culture books, because they don't really apply to the tale being told.

I also thought the ending of "Matter" was a bit... artificial. And after having thoroughly enjoyed reading about the Sarl and Oramen's coming of age for several hundred pages, I found his sudden end quite unsatisfactory.

[Hilarity Unit]

Yes, definitely a novel of two (uneven) halves – problem was you could see the join.

I liked the second half more than the first, but it would have been better attached to a much tighter/shorter first half. I guess if you were a fan of the first half then another couple of books worth wouldn’t have been amiss :eek:

As for all the other Involved I found it quite an eye opener too. Had the feel of David Brin’s Sundiver series about it.

[Adamus]

I guess if you were a fan of the first half then another couple of books worth wouldn’t have been amiss :eek:

Quite so. I wouldn't mind a series of books about the Sarl on Sursamen, I think there's plenty of base material to work with to fill several volumes. I think the SF/Fantasy-blend of the Sarl society appeals to me the most, especially when combined with TMH's skill in writing about intrigue, family relationships and epic events.

[Adamus]

I think the kerfuffle in TMH's life had an effect on the writing of Matter and probably Garbedale as well.

As a new forum reader I'm lost as to what this kerfuffle is. Can you shed any light on it?

[Hilarity Unit]

He went through a divorce around the time tSAtG was being written - which was a major contribution to the large gap in this book appeaing - that and writing Raw Spirit. By the time Matter came out he had himself a new girlfriend and seemed very happy with life. But I suppose the thrill (?) of falling for someone could be seen to have addling his brain (a bit)!

[Big Orange]

Matter's sudden ending is not so surprising given the nature of the threat when Involved technology works lightning fast, but while the Sarl politics and warfare has been seen before in Inversions and Use of Weapons, the Sarl being a primitive civilization living within a vast, ancient machine is a recycled Banks concept that has been executed better than in Feersum Endjinn. I really liked the bit where the Sarl characters were flying between the gigantic pillars of Sursaman.

Having new big players such as the Morthanveld and Nariscene does not seem that hard swallow, given the mindspinning size and complexity of a fictional Milky Way. The Culture is still very advanced and powerful, but always been widely dispersed and normadic.

[FearfulSymmetry]

Finally got around to writing a review of Matter:

http://www.fearful-symmetry.co.uk/2009/02/16/matter-by-iain-m-banks/

[Conscious Bob]

Finally got around to writing a review of Matter:

Good one, I liked the multi-layered analogy. Not too sure about the shift from fantasy to sci-fi and back again point as there isn't any magic as such. I suppose you could have meant fantasy style?

[Deep Black]

With the Dragon type things etc...

[edash]

SF Revu have reposted John Berlyne's review (http://www.sfrevu.com/php/Review-id.php?id=8844) to tie in with the paperback release.

[edash]

Review from Gwyneth Jones at Strange Horizons (http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2008/04/matter_by_iain_.shtml)

[Coral Beach]

Review from Gwyneth Jones at Strange Horizons (http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2008/04/matter_by_iain_.shtml)

Some interesting thoughts in this one, although at points I'm not sure how thoroughly she actually read the book (or maybe it is just my own memory failing?):

"...the female-ordered Morthanveld..." Confusing the Nariscene and Morthanveld here?
"...a human Developing Nation called the Sarl/Deldeyn. These two warring sects..." Why 'sects'? More like two nations.(?)
"Shellworlds (...) are generally considered harmless." The 'Slaughterworlds'? Ok, maybe now that people know how to defuse them.
"...the Intelligent Drone Turminder Xuss, lightly disguised as a knife-missile." ... which is then more heavily disguised as a sex toy.
"The hegemony of an allegedly benign superpower will continue,..." There are superpowers, but none of them has a hegemony.
"We can shake our heads over the cruel cost, but the Powers that Be are always right, and the unquestioned benefits of “anarchist-utopia” (did someone mutter democracy?) shall always prevail." Did I read a different book?


Most of it just details, but it makes me wonder about the conclusions.

[Conscious Bob]

the Intelligent Drone Turminder Xuss, lightly disguised as a knife-missile."

I wonder why a Drone would be disguised as a knife missile, a bit like disguising a bomb as a grenade.

Maybe she's not too familiar with the Culture canon, is that a pun?

[Champagne Socialist]

If I remember rightly the drone was disguised as a knife missile to avoid the SC agent+drone= oh shiit and fan!!! view most civilizations that have any knowledge of The Culture seem to have.
Whereas a knife missile is just back.
The Culture wanted to avoid creating the right impression.

[Conscious Bob]

Har, forgot about that.

'Hey it's okay, it's just a knife missile relax'