Credit crunchy.

[jag]

So how is it affecting you guys?
The cost of fuel has come down, my mortgage is the lowest it's ever been, bargains galore in the shops and with a lot of places going into admin, it is a dark time for some.

[Champagne Socialist]

My section of Heavy construction hasn't been affected, and is due to get a nice influx of government funding in the form of their credit crunch 'salve' infrastructure spending.
The renewable energy jobs are the most at risk, but with the extra from nuke... and the wife's a Dr, so never short of work.

Unlike so many others we haven't hocked ourselves to the hilt and beyond on credit, so we could have some rich pickings during the recession.

[Deep Black]

As a Driving Instructor, I'm kind of dependant on how others are doing. If my pupils are poor then so am I.

Over all I'm not doing to bad so far. Some pupils have stopped or reduced hours though.

As for debt, we only buy what we can afford. No Credit other than the mortgage

[disrepdog]

I'm waiting to see an influx of animals at the animal shelter I work at, when people decide they can't afford to keep them anymore. The charity is not as financially wealthy as people think it is and if people leave they aren't being replaced atm.

[Champagne Socialist]

The problem with Gordon Brown's economic model of everyone going further and further into personal debt, in order to supplant the income lost through the demise of manufacturing, based on the fallacy of ever increasing house prices, while he quietly sells off key infrastructure (nuclear energy design, then nuclear energy production, gold reserves (when they were at their lowest value and just before the current rise! Moron!), Qinetiq, et al) and pretty much everything else that had exportable commercial value through design skills exportation (which because he's sold off we're now having to pay to import back in! Moron!) was bound to fail. It couldn't not fail. Because it was all built on imaginary wealth from imaginary worth and now that everyone else has figured this out as well his daydream has become our nightmare.

[RedKing]

Anyone got a nice job going spare? I need one.

[Champagne Socialist]

what is it you do for work?

[RedKing]

I'm "in IT" as they say - 20 years, man and boy...

[Hilarity Unit]

We moved to Scotland in August - only problem is we've yet to sell out house in Kent. A couple of sniffs in Oct/Nov but they fell through. So paying two mortgages (in effect) isn't much fun (although one of them is a tracker) and living in a 2 bed apartment is getting a bit tiresome.

[jag]

And now we get a pint for 99p at Wetherspoons.:)

[Conscious Bob]

The problem with Gordon Brown's economic model of everyone going further and further into personal debt, in order to supplant the income lost through the demise of manufacturing, based on the fallacy of ever increasing house prices, while he quietly sells off key infrastructure (nuclear energy design, then nuclear energy production, gold reserves (when they were at their lowest value and just before the current rise! Moron!)

I support multiple energy solutions but I've never been comfortable with nuclear being referred to as 'key infrastructure'. The plants cost a fortune to build, another fortune to decommission with management required to tend the remains. If other parties insist on cherry picking for a share of the burden then that can only be a good thing. There's roughly only 50 to 100 years of natural uranium anyway. Perhaps we could reprocess some of those nuclear warheads, beat swords into ploughshears.

Selling the gold reserves, what a numpty! Then again, I've a fixed rate mortgage.

[Big Orange]

Nuclear power is not quite the be all and end all of renewable power, but it is certainly superior to land based wind power, easily miles better than dreary coal and oil power and it is a strategic blunder to have France have essentially all of it (but then again they have the expertise to build cutting edge nuclear power plants and they're relatively benign in comparison to Russia).

Well the Thatcherite revolution is over. Neo-Liberalism has run to its logical conclusion, falling on its sword of greed and spite. Not only was the housing and property market shot to s--t through execessive privatization (including council housing) but it was put under strain by blind immigration, with greedy employers in the private sector seeing them as a stop gap to prevent the national debt from imploding sooner.

The influx of immigrants went down as well as a brick through a glass coffee table with the majority of people who weren't corporate executives or small business owners, although I don't hold anything against the immigrants themselves giving the obvious stress of moving to another strange country, often away from their famillies, to work for poor wages while denuding their home countries of proper labour. However the pressure of immigration on society and business forcing society to pick up the tab has done wonders for the BNP.

Then when the corporate greedheads are not importing wage slaves into Britain they're exporting their offices and factories out of Britain. It was a strategic blunder that America and Britain moved the bulk of their manufacturing to China, but more recently giant corporations like Dell Computers and Cadbury-Schweppes had the bright idea of offshoring their British Isle production to Poland (where ironically much of the recent foreign labour came from anyway) and they did this to sell the land the factories were built on (despite the fact the property market is plummeting into the Earth's core). I guess these are the machinations of the European Union, a malignant nascent superstate apparently trying to run Britain into the ground at every turn out jealously for being a partner of the United States and the Commonwealth.

In effect many if not most 16 to 35 year olds have been unceremoniously thrown onto the scrapheap because of this system of retardo-capitalism depending on dirt cheap labour and fat cat salaries, with 200, 000 young (or youngish) bright people leaving Britain a year primarily because of these economic ravages and the general lackadaisical attitude of the private sector in offering reliable employment (with salaries worse than government welfare and random firings).

The economy should serve society not the other way around, and this BS 'Globalization' (brought on by improvements in logistics and communications) is a ploy for recklessly short-sighted and maliciously selfish corporations to run roughshod over the interests of entire populations and even whole countries, ignoring the fact that you need these populations and countries to sustain the economy in the first place.

If this carries on, it just gives the current political and economic power brokers more rope to hang themselves with and I wouldn't be surprised if a socially/economically ruined Britain gives rise to a British version of Mussolini or Castro.

[Champagne Socialist]

Preferably Castro.

It will be our children who pay for this mess either way.
I'm not sure revolution will be that way though, it's not really in the British blood. We Brits tend to whinge but do nothing.

[Conscious Bob]

' I know that the future looks dark but it's there that the kids of today have to carry the light

On and on and on it goes, the world it just keeps spinning'.

[Big Orange]

It will be our children who pay for this mess either way.
I'm not sure revolution will be that way though, it's not really in the British blood. We Brits tend to whinge but do nothing.

It won't be our children it will be US under the age of 45 that will have to survive the worst of it in our working lifetime and if our children will suffer as well it shows how such a big clusterf**k the whole situation is.

And people revolted enough when Margaret Thatcher annihilated Britain's moribund and uncompetetive industries, ravaging the original working class beyond repair (with the survivors becoming lower middle class), but if the middle class as a whole will disappear and standards of living for most get much worse, then more people are more likely to take things into their own hands, violently if necessary no matter their cultural background. The non-offensive Icelanders are going on a rampage as well after their fictional economy got hit with reality.

[Conscious Bob]

Iceland, one of Alec Salmond's 'Arc of Prosperity' countries.

Oh well.

[haddonsman]

We've never beer busier - I work for the company that runs the Business Link service in the East Midlands. When times are good, we're dishing out grants and planning business expansion. Now we're up to our ears with credit analysis and sector-specific recovery funding.

[RedKing]

I'm not sure revolution will be that way though, it's not really in the British blood.

We did have a very vicious Civil War, as well as the equivalents of the Cultural Revolution after 1945 and in the 60s. The Industrial Revolution was no laughing matter either...

[Big Orange]

We're only three meals away from anarchy anyway and Britain has become too much of a passive consumer society with a relatively unskilled workforce. Also we've got a somewhat defanged criminal justice system and overcrowded 'soft' prisons, that has caused a lot of social/cultural frustration over the years that will likely boil over once the country flies apart.

[Adamus]

I find the crisis not as important as the hasty exchange of freedom for 'safety', however ephemeral the latter may prove to be. CCTV everywhere, national ID card, citizens being arrested for taking photos in public places, a government very capable of tracking every citizen's transportation habits, etc.

I'm amazed at the relative easy with which this is happening. It's as if 1984 was never written. Decades of IRA terror didn't manage to bring Britain to its knees, but a few Islamic fanatics and all of a sudden freedom is a dirty word?

As I'm in the process of moving to the UK (Northern Ireland to be specific) I am quite worried about all of this.

[Big Orange]

Just yesterday I got accosted by a private security guard in a recently opened shopping centre for taking a few photographs. That does seem unnecessarily draconian and paranoid, although the guard was only doing his job and following stupid orders.

[RedKing]

Decades of IRA terror didn't manage to bring Britain to its knees, but a few Islamic fanatics and all of a sudden freedom is a dirty word?

Not to bring the discussion down to too low a level, but the main difference between the IRA and the new generation of killers is mainly that the IRA didn't want to inflict massive casualties on a regular basis as this would provoke a backlash in their main funding sites in the USA and cause the UK Govt. to step up their side of the game. There was an 'acceptable level of casualties' on both sides. The result that the main paramilitary gangs on both sides run the illegal drugs trade etc., is a happy by-product for them.

Also, the IRA didn't want to blow themselves up in the course of an attack, whereas your new breed are promised their allocation of virgins in paradise as 'martyrs for the cause'. It's therefore a different type of challenge for the security services and the public at large.

[edash]

Plus, for most of the time IRA activities were confined to NI and so had little real impact on the lives of the greater UK populace, including those in government.

[edash]

As I'm in the process of moving to the UK (Northern Ireland to be specific)

What part?

[Adamus]

Hmm, yes, I suppose the IRA analogy doesn't really fit. "Gentleman terrorists" as Patrick Kielty once described them, compared to the horrendously ignorant fanatics that blow themselves up for 72 imaginary virgins. Imagine their surprise when they find themselves in utter oblivion instead of the promised paradise.

Oh, wait....


What part?

Belfast. Holywood to be exact, as that's where my girlfriend lives and I'll be moving in with her. Are you from NI?

[edash]

Belfast. Holywood to be exact, as that's where my girlfriend lives and I'll be moving in with her. Are you from NI?


I'm on the other side of Belfast Lough from Holywood, down a bit from Larne (where rac used to live).

[ROU Read After Burning]

And I'm just down the M1 a bit in Banbridge:)

[Adamus]

Well, I suppose we don't have any excuse then not to have a Northern Irish Iain Banks Appreciation Booze Binge sometime in the near future. :) Any of you fans of Ulster Rugby? My girlfriend works for them and I can probably score some cheap tickets.

[Conscious Bob]

Hmm, yes, I suppose the IRA analogy doesn't really fit. "Gentleman terrorists" as Patrick Kielty once described them, compared to the horrendously ignorant fanatics that blow themselves up for 72 imaginary virgins. Imagine their surprise when they find themselves in utter oblivion instead of the promised paradise.

Gentleman Terrorists, there's an oxymoron if ever there was one.

Blowing up non combatants and I'm not just talking about terrorists can't be justified, one life or a thousand, same thing. Comparisons are therefore meaningless.

Do you know what's on the other side? because I don't.

I tend to think it's oblivion but that's just my opinion and that's the problem.

No proof of either, the world goes to hell on peoples opinions.

'Hell' in my post is not being used in a spiritual context.

[Adamus]

I never stated I approved of what the IRA or any other terrorist organisation did. On the contrary, I wholeheartedly disapprove. However, one cannot deny the regularity with which terrorism has proven to be a successful means of achieving whatever goals the organisation has set. It sure beats nonviolent protest in terms of effectiveness.

Re: the afterlife, that was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek statement. I do think that there is no afterlife, mainly because of a lack of evidence, but I recognise the inherent difficulty in obtaining such evidence. It's like trying to prove what exists outside of the universe.

[Conscious Bob]

I never stated I approved of what the IRA or any other terrorist organisation did. On the contrary, I wholeheartedly disapprove. However, one cannot deny the regularity with which terrorism has proven to be a successful means of achieving whatever goals the organisation has set. It sure beats nonviolent protest in terms of effectiveness.

Re: the afterlife, that was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek statement. I do think that there is no afterlife, mainly because of a lack of evidence, but I recognise the inherent difficulty in obtaining such evidence. It's like trying to prove what exists outside of the universe.

I don't think you're right. The civil rights movement in the US and India becoming a nation state are good examples of (mainly) non violent protest. I would say they're more effective.

With you on the afterlife view.

[edash]

Well, I suppose we don't have any excuse then not to have a Northern Irish Iain Banks Appreciation Booze Binge sometime in the near future. :) Any of you fans of Ulster Rugby? My girlfriend works for them and I can probably score some cheap tickets.

I'm sure we can work something out for the former, I work in Belfast City Centre. Sorry, no interest whatsoever in the latter.

[Champagne Socialist]

My company just announced redundancies. My department isn't affected though, only the light engineering, which was expected to be worst affected anyway. Guess the bosses decided not to rely on the profitable departments to carry those struggling.

[198505]

Well I got my notice last monday, and I leave this friday, 30th jan, oh happy day:(

[RedKing]

Ah, you can join my Dole Wallah club, numbers.

[198505]

Not exactly an exclusive club now is it?

Oh well I had fun only ever fell out with 2 people in 8 years working there.

[Chiaroscuro]

Ah, you can join my Dole Wallah club, numbers.
Bit like being a member of the Royal family, isn't it? ;)

Not exactly an exclusive club now is it?

Oh well I had fun only ever fell out with 2 people in 8 years working there.
Well you just weren't trying hard enough, now were you?

Seriously, sorry to hear your news. Hope something new comes up for you quickly.

[Deep Black]

Downer :(

[RedKing]

Not exactly an exclusive club now is it?

You, me and, erm, 1.92 million others. :(

[198505]

You, me and, erm, 1.92 million others. :(

And the list grows ever longer:(


Well you just weren't trying hard enough, now were you?

Oh I did try don't get me wrong master



Seriously, sorry to hear your news. Hope something new comes up for you quickly.

Well I've already sent my cv off twice to the same firm, and I'll be look at Asda and the gas board as well soon.

[RedKing]

I've just had my 'Jobseekers Interview' - it took longer to climb the stairs than to get any useful info out of them. I think they guy took the huff when I told him that I helped write and test the JC++ system he was trying to use.

[Big Orange]

Total oil employees are as mad as hell and can't take it anymore (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4398506/Oil-refinery-strikes-Gordon-Brown-promises-to-talk-to-industry.html). To think they allowed a foreign firm to muscle in with its own workers from overseas while everybody else is thrown on the scrapheap.

[Champagne Socialist]

I'm not at all surprised.

[Big Orange]

It was a 200 million pound deal that was likely made the same time last year, before the global economy earnestly went South. Which still strikes me as a little audacious and unnecessary, since the workers came from Italy and Portugal, countries with (overall) similar wages and standards of living to Britain, and it seems especially unpleasant that they're confined onto boats (so they don't fraternize or even contribute to the local service economy).

I hope this strike is more than just jealous and petty xenophobia, but a strike against the system itself which is becoming unworkable and turning Europeans (and the rest of the world) into expendable serfs to shipped everywhere or left on the scrapheap, with no investment into the societies they're been transplanted into or away from.

[Hilarity Unit]

I have good news and bad news.

The good is that we have finally managed to sell out house down in Kent after 9 months.

The bad is that we had to take a £45k hit to do so :mad:

The even worse is that while Kent prices plummeted by 12% over the last year (& we took a bigger fall) here in Aberdeenshire they have only fallen my 2% :eek:

So shoebox here we come...

[jag]

I'm sorry for your lose man.
Still, the air and water are great up here.

[Deep Black]

Bummer HU, hope it all comes good in the end

[Hilarity Unit]

Still, the air and water are great up here.

You bet - air, water & mountains. Taken up Munro bagging (8 so far) as I can't get up the buggers on my [human powered] bike.

[Deep Black]

Munro bagging :confused:

[rac]

Munro bagging :confused:

Walking up hills, Deep.
A Munro is a hill over 914m.

[Hilarity Unit]

A Munro is a hill over 914m.

We like to think of them as mountains :)

[rac]

We like to think of them as mountains :)

I like to think of them as those bloody things that make it rain over my house 360 days a year!

[RedKing]

That's the clouds, rac. Those floaty things in the sky.

[rac]

That's the clouds, rac. Those floaty things in the sky.

They're not in the sky this morning- they're pishing all over the place!

[Conscious Bob]

Tough up the boonies, you should pay civilization a quick visit now and then.

[Deep Black]

Been slashing down here for ages too, today was especially bad, even had some thunder thrown in too

[edash]

Stopped raining here at about 8pm, so that was about 24 hours non-stop.

[jag]

Pretty stormy here all day, and now a strange fog has descended upon the land.

[Hilarity Unit]

Welcome to what's-the-weather-like-with-you thread: a bit cloudy & threatening but not actually raining.

[Deep Black]

Looking better out there today so far

[Champagne Socialist]

Recession means cut backs at work.
I'm having to fight to keep my one remaining contract draughtsman.
HR say that they can't justify keeping contractors while loosing full time staff.
Thing is he's good, contractors usually are, I've tried to subtly to indicate that he should apply for the one full time vacancy I have, and that will inevitably replace him, before I end up with some numpty moron that the failing departments don't want.
He seems hell bent on resisting, and consequently loosing his job though.
I, of course, am not allowed to say anything directly.

[jag]

I've had to give up a couple of hours a week as there ain't much doing. Still I'm sure the usual 'where's Jag?' thing will kick off and I'll get my hours back, as management realise they might have to actually do some work.

[Conscious Bob]

Recession means cut backs at work.
I'm having to fight to keep my one remaining contract draughtsman.
HR say that they can't justify keeping contractors while loosing full time staff.
Thing is he's good, contractors usually are, I've tried to subtly to indicate that he should apply for the one full time vacancy I have, and that will inevitably replace him, before I end up with some numpty moron that the failing departments don't want.
He seems hell bent on resisting, and consequently loosing his job though.
I, of course, am not allowed to say anything directly.

Perhaps he's subtly indicating to you that he's quite happy for the job to end so he can get out.

[Conscious Bob]

Another snippit of Banks related news.

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1504007?UserKey=

Or if you will; Banks gets stuck into the banks.

[Big Orange]

Dubai, one of the biggest Neoliberal examples of hubris, greed, and short-sightedness, threatens to default on its debts (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/businesslatestnews/6664913/Dubai-default-fears-rock-markets.html). Dubai's government backed out of supporting (http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFxSdvgvqhps&pos=1) Dubai World.

[Champagne Socialist]

We've lost a lot of work from that.
5% pay cut and 5% redundancies from my team.
All contractors now gone, and I have to choose who to give notice to just before christmas.

[Big Orange]

Obama to Raise Debt Ceiling by About Two TRILLION (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30417_Page2.html) and the US Government and United States in general is running out of traintrack (http://www.cnbc.com/id/34325134).

And this YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEIOgZxvdDs) is rather eye opening.

[Conscious Bob]

Nice links

Heh,

One of capitalism's core principles is that economies get rich on selling goods they manufacture.

In the last few decades it's suited western companies to move the manufacturing base to 'cheaper' countries. By cheap I mean exploiting unequal money markets around the world rather than the definition of actual value.

As a result UK and US companies made a lot of money by cutting their overheads and successive governments with their big business place men, told us the public that we had to be 'competitive' and 'receptive to change' in the dog eat dog capitalist system that was supposed to generate wealth for everybody in the long run.

What the great and the good feed us piecemeal is the fact the game is rigged and there's no way a western worker can compete with an eastern worker on value as defined by global capitalism. Not that they were caring, at least until the banks collapsed...

All of a sudden our 'competitive' and 'receptive to change' companies (which tend to be financial institutions) floundered as the cash flow flowed away. Our governments which claim to be our representatives gave the banks the public purse. In the UK the public are in the laughable position of owning the majority of what were once bankrupt banks but the banks still do whatever they want.

The reason for that is our financial institutions became our business, there's nothing else, the main manufacturing base is all abroad, they're a millstone around our necks dragging us under.

The only thing which is holding global capitalism together is the fact that the far east has a huge vested interest in the survival of western economies. China in particular can afford to cooporate because they can take the negative hit (they make everything and their economic growth offsets their losses).

What was already an intimate relationship is about to get a lot cosier...

[Big Orange]

Huh, billionaire business tycoons will probably get phased out like absolute monarchs did.

[Conscious Bob]

Huh, billionaire business tycoons will probably get phased out like absolute monarchs did.

Yeah, but they'll have successors.

[Big Orange]

Automation of many jobs makes sense and in the long term is desirable, even it hurts many employees in the short term, but I never understood offshoring and how it would help the longterm survival of Anglo-American multinational corporations when they donate their component parts overseas to potentially hostile foreign countries, even if this corner cutting has many short term benefits and it generates a powerful, hard to contain peer pressure (a company outsources its jobs to keep up with it competitors outsourcing sooner). Megacorporations replacing governments wholesale are fictitious since the current corporate model is about maximising profits, rendering almost everything else secondary, with most Anglo-American companies now slowly bludering to their demise like too narrowly adapted predators which have evolved themselves into a small corner.

[Big Orange]

Some moderately good news for once: Citigroup to Repay $20bn Government Rescue Fund (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6955942.ece). And we have more bolder and aggressive backlashes against Western politicians - F-Bombs Dropped in the Dail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f-TMSbQ8mk) (bad language) and Italian PM Berlusconi gets blugeoned (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8410946.stm) (inappropriate and more likely sex related).

[Conscious Bob]

Automation of many jobs makes sense and in the long term is desirable, even it hurts many employees in the short term, but I never understood offshoring and how it would help the longterm survival of Anglo-American multinational corporations when they donate their component parts overseas to potentially hostile foreign countries, even if this corner cutting has many short term benefits and it generates a powerful, hard to contain peer pressure (a company outsources its jobs to keep up with it competitors outsourcing sooner).


Interesting one this, when you're talking about component manufacture I'm assuming you're talking electronics. The electronics industry is becoming increasingly reliant on rare earth metals. Ninety five percent of them are mined in Mongolia. China are due to limit the amount of metals they export so the message is clear, you want to manufacture electronics come to China.



Megacorporations replacing governments wholesale are fictitious since the current corporate model is about maximising profits, rendering almost everything else secondary, with most Anglo-American companies now slowly bludering to their demise like too narrowly adapted predators which have evolved themselves into a small corner.

Hmm, megacorporations replacing governments was never an issue at least in this debate. That's also a fairly broad brush you've painted the future of Anglo-American companies with. The ones that have relocated their manufacturing base away from the US and the UK are in the main doing quite nicely thankyou very much.

[Big Orange]

Interesting one this, when you're talking about component manufacture I'm assuming you're talking electronics. The electronics industry is becoming increasingly reliant on rare earth metals. Ninety five percent of them are mined in Mongolia. China are due to limit the amount of metals they export so the message is clear, you want to manufacture electronics come to China.

In terms of "components" I really mean the manufacturing and administrative units in Anglo-American companies that are big enough to offload them into Vietnam, India and China without immediately catastrophic results, but they're still getting gradually eroded. And I agree that China are starting most of the cards and are perhaps in a similar position to what the British Empire was in the early 18th century in relation to the still immense, but somewhat floundering Spannish-French hegemony.



Hmm, megacorporations replacing governments was never an issue at least in this debate. That's also a fairly broad brush you've painted the future of Anglo-American companies with. The ones that have relocated their manufacturing base away from the US and the UK are in the main doing quite nicely thankyou very much.

British corporations are doing great enough that a big company like Cadbury-Schweppes PLC is facing a hostile take over (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BA2PJ20091211)? The Anglo-American companies are still vast and successful on the surface, but they've given away much of their lifesblood and floating on consumer debt. The spell has broken.

[Conscious Bob]

In terms of "components" I really mean the manufacturing and administrative units in Anglo-American companies that are big enough to offload them into Vietnam, India and China without immediately catastrophic results, but they're still getting gradually eroded. And I agree that China are starting most of the cards and are perhaps in a similar position to what the British Empire was in the early 18th century in relation to the still immense, but somewhat floundering Spannish-French hegemony.


That's one way of looking at it...



British corporations are doing great enough that a big company like Cadbury-Schweppes PLC is facing a hostile take over (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BA2PJ20091211)? The Anglo-American companies are still vast and successful on the surface, but they've given away much of their lifesblood and floating on consumer debt. The spell has broken.


You refer to a successful UK company being faced with takeover from a successful US company... your point is caller?

[Champagne Socialist]

The consultation process for redundancies is going to take 3 months.
So everyones going to have a job over Christmas, till March at least, but it hasn't helped moral at all, of course.
Wow, such a drawn out system.

[RedKing]

There's a legal observation of a 90 day or more 'consultation period', the amount of time goes up the more people due for the chop. It happened to me this time last year so my sympathy to anyone in the same position.

[Big Orange]

That's one way of looking at it...

I should stop raping history and make vague comparisons to old things I'm still ignorant of, but I think the Unites States of America has been in a gradual decline as a nation since the conclusion of the Vietnam War and the rot in Capitalism was setting in by then.



You refer to a successful UK company being faced with takeover from a successful US company... your point is caller?

It's still a hostile takeover and one example of multinational companies devouring each other, with the victors getting bigger and dumber in the process. A former employee of Cadbury-Schweppes PLC said what idiots some of these Kraft executives are.

However Kit Kat has long been owned by Nestle', but is as successful as it's ever been as a brand, and Kraft Foods already owns many confectionary brands in the Europe. But it's all cheaply made crap at the end of the day and Cadbury factories must've already employed many Eastern Europeans.

And Flyglobespan Implodes (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/scotlands-biggest-airline-collapses-1842768.html) - Could these be early signs of the commercial airlines going into decline? If so, that would worringly be a huge aspect of the global economy going down in flames; a very broad guillotine blade slicing down on millions of jobs and thousands of businesses everywhere.

[Conscious Bob]

I should stop raping history and make vague comparisons to old things I'm still ignorant of, but I think the Unites States of America has been in a gradual decline as a nation since the conclusion of the Vietnam War and the rot in Capitalism was setting in by then.


Yeah, the US are still coming to terms with that but it's coming along.



It's still a hostile takeover and one example of multinational companies devouring each other, with the victors getting bigger and dumber in the process. A former employee of Cadbury-Schweppes PLC said what idiots some of these Kraft executives are.


So what? multinational companies covet brands. They don't care where the brand comes from. They only care about how cheap they can make it and how dear they can sell it.



However Kit Kat has long been owned by Nestle', but is as successful as it's ever been as a brand, and Kraft Foods already owns many confectionary brands in the Europe. But it's all cheaply made crap at the end of the day and Cadbury factories must've already employed many Eastern Europeans.


Why stop there, you don't get british HP Sauce anymore. Heinz owns the brand and HP Sauce is made in the Netherlands. I'm pretty fond of Kit Kats, I suppose we should be grateful they're still UK made.



And Flyglobespan Implodes (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/scotlands-biggest-airline-collapses-1842768.html) - Could these be early signs of the commercial airlines going into decline? If so, that would worringly be a huge aspect of the global economy going down in flames; a very broad guillotine blade slicing down on millions of jobs and thousands of businesses everywhere.

It was cash flow that wiped them out. They had a good ledger but the money wasn't coming in fast enough. The administrators are now tracking the missing credit card payments.

The flying situation is pretty dire at least it looks that way on Opodo. British Airways is now among the cheapest airlines to get flights at the moment.

[Big Orange]

The Anglo-American hegemony has set itself up for a big economic/political implosion since many Anglo-Americans believe in hard work and not being dependent on a nanny state, hence why the manufacturing and service jobs that have not been exported to Latin America, Eastern Europe and Asia have wages and conditions almost as bad (this gets touched up in Joe Bageant's Deer Hunting With Jesus: Guns, Votes, Debt and Delusion in Redneck America). Since the free marketeers want as cheap labour as possible, Britain and America might as well build slave camps for the working and middle classes to compete with Asian slavery. And look at the US debt owned by China. (http://anallseeingeye.blogspot.com/2009/12/who-owns-sovereign-debt-of-us.html)

Also Aldi, Lidil and the Co-Operative sell better chocolate than the confectionary subsidiaries of Cadbury-Schweppes, Kraft Foods, and Nestle'.

[Conscious Bob]

Also Aldi, Lidil and the Co-Operative sell better chocolate than the confectionary subsidiaries of Cadbury-Schweppes, Kraft Foods, and Nestle'.

That I would say is a subjective opinion.

[Deep Black]

I like that stuff with the high % of coco in

[Big Orange]

The Cadbury brand is still vast, but I don't think it will ever be big as it was in the 1950s, the Mars/Galaxy brand on a similar footing, and Nestle' is as monolithic as it has ever been. The supermarket's own chocolate and Teutonic brands from Lidl/Aldi is just extra pressure - heck Kellogg's is feeling the heat from supermarket cereals.

And here's an interesting (if long) lecture on America's deflating middle classes by Elizabeth Warren from some time ago; The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A).

And on that cheerful note:

27, 000 UK Companies Fold (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/Tories-Say-27000-Business-Have-Gone-Bust-During-Recession-And-Attack-Labours-Policies/Article/200912415506895?lpos=Business_First_Buisness_Artic le_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15506895_Tories_Say_27%2C000_Business_ Have_Gone_Bust_During_Recession_And_Attack_Labours _Policies)
Possible US Food Crisis (http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/12/2010-food-crisis-for-dummies.html)
UK Funding For Further Education Slashed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8427546.stm)

[Big Orange]

400 workers at Cadbury's had no choice about losing their jobs (http://www.birminghampost.net/birmingham-business/birmingham-business-news/other-uk-business/2010/02/09/400-jobs-under-threat-at-cadbury-in-somerset-following-kraft-takeover-65233-25795276/).

[Champagne Socialist]

and the take over was funded a RBS, a British bank.
It's not the first time they've done it either.

[cabbo]

The Royal Bank of Sadism?

Oh, wait, I have a halifax account...

[Big Orange]

It's like three sinking ships colliding with each other.

I don't particularily despise Kraft Foods, since Cadbury-Schweppes was mainly peddling second rate chocolate products, it floated its fizzy pop division on the stock market (not really running it), and has not seriously innovated or introduced brands for many years (say what you will about Nestle', indirect baby killers and all, but at least they expanded the Kit Kat brand). And relocating to Poland was Cadbury's plan formulated years in advance, to save on paying a few hundred workers real wages, making a killing with the land the original factory was built on, but that didn't stop them from getting taken over by the equally clumsy Kraft Foods.

[Conscious Bob]

It's like three sinking ships colliding with each other.

Define 'sinking'.

[cabbo]

Gradually submerging?

[Conscious Bob]

Within the context of Big O's post...

[cabbo]

yeah...

Most likely that all three businesses were failing at the time. I take it you disagree?

[Conscious Bob]

yeah...

Most likely that all three businesses were failing at the time. I take it you disagree?

Well yeah, you can hardly describe Kraft, Cadbury's and RBS as failing businesses.

[cabbo]

I wouldn't know about it at all. I'm not a current-affairs-in-business-and-ecomony kind of guy.

They weren't doing as well as they had been, though, say, 3 years ago...

...why am I trying to justify a metaphor?

[Big Orange]

I would say the post-WWII boom that originated in America has drawn to a close and more companies shift more of their jobs overseas (like IBM (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/IBM-move-work-from-Portsmouth.6069322.jp)). And here's an interesting take on money itself and the banking system:

Money as Debt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIIAvdJvCes)

[Conscious Bob]

I wouldn't know about it at all. I'm not a current-affairs-in-business-and-ecomony kind of guy.

They weren't doing as well as they had been, though, say, 3 years ago...

...why am I trying to justify a metaphor?

They're doing just peachy thank you.

[Big Orange]

Cadbury's, although past its prime and lacking in innovation, is still a omnipresent chocolate brand, while Kraft Foods has now dramatically lowered its production costs, even if critics say Kraft are in debt and paid too much for the take over.

[Conscious Bob]

Cadbury's, although past its prime and lacking in innovation, is still a omnipresent chocolate brand, while Kraft Foods has now dramatically lowered its production costs, even if critics say Kraft are in debt and paid too much for the take over.

I'm sorry Big O did you do any research into this post...?

The world's second biggest food company just bought the world's second biggest confectionery company for 10.2 billion pounds. It cost them but they'll make their money. RBS, nicely swaddled in taxpayer's money, was involved in the deal and they've just announced a full year profit gain of 5.25 percent.

They may be many things but they aren't sinking.

[cabbo]

Fair enough. Like I said, I don't know very much on the subject. Now I know a little. Cheers.

[Big Orange]

I'm not denying that Cadbury's and Kraft Foods are not tiny companies at all, and in the first quarter they've done good, but I doubt it is a long term strategy that will work. Cadbury's supposedly semi-demerged from Schweppes (http://cadburyar2008.production.investis.com/en/other-information/shareholder-information/demerger-of-cadbury-schweppes.aspx) and Kraft Foods sold its pizza division to Nestle' (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Kraft-Foods-Announces-prnews-2855412361.html?x=0&.v=1) (both acts seemed pretty irrational and Warren Buffet had his misgivings, although he's made an about turn as shown here - http://www.cnbc.com/id/23172142/).

The UK's public sector has seemingly ballooned for a reason and I feel like the UK has been degraded as an economic centre, even if upper management for both companies did well for themselves (especially).

[Conscious Bob]

I'm not denying that Cadbury's and Kraft Foods are not tiny companies at all, and in the first quarter they've done good, but I doubt it is a long term strategy that will work. Cadbury's supposedly semi-demerged from Schweppes and Kraft Foods sold its pizza division to Nestle both acts seemed pretty irrational and Warren Buffet had his misgivings, although he's made an about turn as shown here.

Are they sinking or not? straight answer.

[cabbo]

They're floating dead in the water?

[Conscious Bob]

They're floating dead in the water?

By all means make a contribution but try reading a newspaper first... for me...

[cabbo]

Sorry. Couldn't help myself. Feel free to disregard anything I've said on this topic.

[Big Orange]

Kraft Foods has frozen its pensions (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/7253989/Krafts-planned-US-pensions-freeze-raises-concerns-at-Cadbury.html) in America.

[Deep Black]

& now my job could be floating dead in the water:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8522446.stm

[jag]

Hope not deep.
No job seems to be safe these days.

[Conscious Bob]

Kraft Foods has frozen its pensions in America.

You still think it's sinking then?

[Big Orange]

Kraft Foods has supposedly dismissed the original board of executives for Cadbury's which will not bode well for the company, Kraft Foods will probably use coca from Latin America rather than Africa, and Anglo-American companies aim at making gains within a three month timeframe to please shareholders (sacrificing policies and projects that would make long-term gains, like R&D for example).

[Conscious Bob]

You seem incapable of answering a straight question.

[Deep Black]

I thought I was indecisive but now I'm not so sure. Ohh how we laughed

[cabbo]

You seem incapable of answering a straight question.

Two reasons for that: they know they're wrong, or they know there is no straight answer, only grey. Seems like what Big Orange is saying is that it is a bad thing for Kraft foods to sacrifice long-term projects, and that it will ultimately end with a sinking ship.

[jag]

As long as I get a four figure pay, I'm happy..all I need are the things that get me thru the days.

[Conscious Bob]

Two reasons for that: they know they're wrong, or they know there is no straight answer, only grey. Seems like what Big Orange is saying is that it is a bad thing for Kraft foods to sacrifice long-term projects, and that it will ultimately end with a sinking ship.

He might not be wrong, it's a powerful thing in debate to answer a straight question. If he can't answer a straight question on the opinions he's posting then he shouldn't be posting them.

[Big Orange]

I agree with what cabbo says. I'm wrong to say that Cadbury's and by extention Kraft Foods is rapidly sinking, but not many people are gaining anything truly decent from the whole affair, with things either staying the same as they are or getting worse for everybody else. However I don't take the merger as personally as some British nationalist chest thumpers ('RAR! AMERIKA TOOK URE JURBES!!!') since a large UK company, Prudential, has bought out AIG (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/01/prudential-billions-aig-bailout-debt).

[cabbo]

Hohoho, hehehe, SP referencing.

So, what, the ships aren't sinking, but the waters are still? Oh, no, that feels too much like a Killers song.

[Conscious Bob]

I agree with what cabbo says. I'm wrong to say that Cadbury's and by extention Kraft Foods is rapidly sinking, but not many people are gaining anything truly decent from the whole affair, with things either staying the same as they are or getting worse for everybody else.

Good One Big O, don't defend the indefencible.

[Champagne Socialist]

Cabbo (Hey guys I think we may have a new regular here), where the hell did you're sig come from?
Big O: I'm going to miss the curlywurly.
I'm also intrinsically against american capitalism and corporate culture. Seeing something so quintessentially... socialist, a company founded on the ideals of fair employment, if not a cooperative, be taken over by a money grubbing greed is good vampire like kraft is a blow.

[Conscious Bob]

I'm also intrinsically against american capitalism and corporate culture. Seeing something so quintessentially... socialist, a company founded on the ideals of fair employment, if not a cooperative, be taken over by a money grubbing greed is good vampire like kraft is a blow.


Founded on Philanthropic principles certainly, I'm not sure about socialist. That was back in the Mid Victorian day though and if you're prepared to swim with sharks...

[cabbo]

@champy I like it here. It's from a short fan-story of Doom made by someone who called themselves 'peter chimaera' (I think). There's a link on the 'worst sci-fi writers of all time' thread.


I am not against capitalism, however I am against those who would exploit it. We all know what a utopian society is, the definition of equal opportunity, but in practise, while we might pull through playing fair, not everyone plays along. There are corrupt ideals, true, but there are more people vested in the corruption of utopia.

Well, I'm not claiming that America is a utopian society with a few bad eggs, but the principals of the market are sound. Unless someone wants to show me otherwise.

[Conscious Bob]

Well, I'm not claiming that America is a utopian society with a few bad eggs, but the principals of the market are sound. Unless someone wants to show me otherwise.

The market has principles eh. Would that be power and money?

[jag]

When I said a 4 figure payslip I didn't mean..£99.99, do you want fries with that?

[cabbo]

@Cbob that would be freedom from state, and the 'work for what you get' ethic. Power is just a side-effect, and money is a means.

[Big Orange]

Britain is still racking up epic trade deficits (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8557200.stm) as the Pound Stirling crashes through the floorboards of the basement. Britain's economic problems seem too fundamental to be fixed within five years, the housing is still way overpriced, and the culling of the public sector is going to smart.

[jag]

Let's not be over dramatic here....Britain is a good place to be.
I earn enough to live and am able to afford the luxuries I need.

[Big Orange]

It is worrying that Alan Greenspan, one of the idiost responsible for this mess, was an associate of Ayn Rand (who was a nutter and allegedly a dull, dull, DULL novelist (http://exiledonline.com/atlas-shrieked-why-ayn-rands-right-wing-followers-are-scarier-than-the-manson-family-and-the-gruesome-story-of-the-serial-killer-who-stole-ayn-rands-heart/)).

[cabbo]

"ATLAS SHRIEKED: Ayn Rand’s First Love and Mentor Was A Sadistic Serial Killer Who Dismembered Little Girls"

Wow, now that's how you introduce an article.

Of course, to her fans, that just makes her 'interesting' and 'troubled'.

"...Ayn Rand, a popular cult-philosopher who plays Charlie to the American right-wing’s Manson Family."
-Title of her latest Biography.

Jesus L. Christopherson, that's scary. Really scary. Of course, Atlas was a poor choice, since he carries the heavens, and does not murder all of heaven's twelve-year-olds.

[Big Orange]

Here is an animated film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOw5Y5HMtE8) adapted from a segment from Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. Shocking.

[Champagne Socialist]

Pay cuts extended and another 20 redundancies at my place :-/

[cabbo]

I can't get a job. Everywhere requires experience. I could sell a man a bottle of water, claiming it's spiritual medicine, but apparently I can't sell Xbox games.

[Deep Black]

Monday could be my last day of work for a while

[jag]

Too many potholes eh Deep??

[Big Orange]

Oh dear, world's billionaires grew 50% richer (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/mar2010/forb-m12.shtml) in the last 18 months.

[Deep Black]

Too many potholes eh Deep??
Something like that.

Have been into the back to cancel my direct debit franchise fee today

[Champagne Socialist]

More redundancies at my place.
35. Quite a lot, will reduce the company to half it's size prior to the recession.
And for the first time I'm actually in the firing line.
Time to update the old CV

[BeckyH]

Ouch! Best of luck dodging the pink slip bullet. Although with only half as many people everyone will be run ragged trying to keep up. It's alose-lose situation.

[Big Orange]

Hmmmm, about 1.5 million people will be cut off from their benefits and onto breadlines... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0)

Not good, and here's an interesting lecture on Neoliberal Globalization by David Harvey:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0

And here's a poor critique of it by HowTheWankerWanks:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJGAs2KwoWk

[Flashman]

Gasp - BP chief executive Tony Hayward (53) will get an immediate annual pension worth about £600,000 ($930,000) when he leaves in October.

[Conscious Bob]

Gasp - BP chief executive Tony Hayward (53) will get an immediate annual pension worth about £600,000 ($930,000) when he leaves in October.

Yep, he's off to Russia too, just the sort of guy you want involved with the pristine Artic wilderness.

[Champagne Socialist]

Had my first (of 3) interview today for my own job.
Fun. Moral is so high around the place you could bottle it... in tiny little gossamer bottles of nothingness.

[Solipsist Mercenary]

Not sure if it's credit crunchy related, but my part time job just went up in a puff of dirty smoke at the end of the shift today. I understand all the reasons, business has dropped through the floor and the boss has lost money every time I showed up for the past month, month and a half, but still it means I've got to start looking again.

-sm

[Tangendentalism]

My partner just graduated from university. You can imagine how well that's working out. Also means we're getting to see the value (and bureaucracy) of the welfare state just before the whole thing gets dumped.

[Conscious Bob]

They've too much to do and too little staff like everywhere else it seems.

The new mantra 'make savings but still deliver services'.

[Big Orange]

Hmmm, this old interview (1994) between Charlie Rose and the late Sir James Goldsmith discusing outsourcing (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5064665078176641728#) is pretty interesting and Goldsmith was one of the few plutocrats back in the 1990s who applied basic common sense when thinking about the ultimate long-term results of moving millions of jobs to Chindia and importing most goods instead of making them. Our economy is run by people who are cut off from reality (and they might as well be when the super-rich live away from us, hermetically sealed inside their penthouses, corporate headquarters, government buildings, yatchs, and mansions).

[Flashman]

Hmmm, this old interview (1994) between Charlie Rose and the late Sir James Goldsmith discusing outsourcing (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5064665078176641728#) is pretty interesting and Goldsmith was one of the few plutocrats back in the 1990s who applied basic common sense when thinking about the ultimate long-term results of moving millions of jobs to Chindia and importing most goods instead of making them. Our economy is run by people who are cut off from reality (and they might as well be when the super-rich live away from us, hermetically sealed inside their penthouses, corporate headquarters, government buildings, yatchs, and mansions).

I only had time to watch half this interview but with the benefit of hindsight and what's actually been happening in my local real world it's fascinating - and not in a good way. Sir James was right - trade imbalance and a huge number of lost jobs/earnings.

[Champagne Socialist]

It's me :-(
I'm in the 50% going.
Gratifyingly my line manager says he doesn't recognise the person described in the scoring, but he also said my only chance of a fair appeal is to take it to an industrial tribunal.
There's a personality clash with one of the Directors, and his pet principal tech (who's an overpaid useless arse kissing monkey).

I can' be bothered with an appeal, and I've had so many offers of good references that I hope it shouldn't be to long before I have another job, will probably end up having to move to London though looking at the recruitment sites.

Although my soon to be ex-employers biggest competition has an office nearby... and I know all the development roadmaps and what is and isn't patented.

[Flashman]

Sorry to hear that Champers. I hope it all goes really well for you in the future. Good luck with the next job.

[Deep Black]

Bummer, bad news.

But may turn out good in the end, hope so

[Chiaroscuro]

Sorry to hear your news CS - hope you get something else really soon.

[RedKing]

Yes, the same from me. I've been there recently and hope you get something sorted toot-suite.

[Champagne Socialist]

Cheers for the moral support guys.

[Big Orange]

It doesn't look good for most of the employees at Twinings either: (http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4717334.Half_of_work_force_to_lose_jobs_at_Twining s__in_Hampshire/)



The firm's Chinese factory would be doubled in size and be concentrated on production for the US and Asia Pacific markets, while a new factory in Poland would be focussed on markets in the rest of the world.

British jobs for British workers, eh? I've got an incling why violent Fascist and Communist movements got so popular in Europe in the first half of the 20th century.

And here's a good documentary on the probably double dip recession that will give you all sleepless nights:

Overdose: The Next Financial Crisis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6FNYvC4uyM)

[Champagne Socialist]

looks like I have a new job

[Conscious Bob]

looks like I have a new job

No details... you now Cava Socialist?

[Champagne Socialist]

Closer to Lambrini Socialist.
I'm taking a huge pay cut to take this job.
But I'll at least be moving in to the wine industry. Training to become a wine buyer.
So in a couple of years I'll be travelling the world, tasting wines and selecting the best for import and sale. Then I'll be back to being Champers

[Deep Black]

Nice work if you can get it :)

[Conscious Bob]

Try not to take your work home with you...

[Champagne Socialist]

Right, well that lasted long.
I'm out of the wine business and back into Marine Engineering. Specifically offshore renewables.
Competitor of my previous employer heard I was made redundant and offered me an interview. Then offered me a job.
I ummed and arghed about it (not really being interested) and they kept offering more and more until I couldn't really say no.
So I'm now I'll now be competing directly against former projects I've worked on, knowing all of their strengths, weaknesses and future plans.

Unfortunately I'm having to move. And I'm hating that.

[Deep Black]

What happened to the wine idea, sounded like more fun to me

[Champagne Socialist]

wine was an awful lot more fun (except one psycho-bitch) but this is an awful lot more money.
And medical, bonuses, car, pension, holiday, corporate gym & golf club memberships... etc.

[Deep Black]

Gym?

[Champagne Socialist]

Gym?

They're big buildings made up of rooms full of different things people use to exercise.
Some of these things may be simple nets strung across the middle, or holes filled with water (like a really big puddle, but clean and warm), other rooms are filled with machinery which you have to use your physical endeavour to operate. Still more rooms are hot and dry or full of steam, some even have other people in them who'll rub warm oil all over your body after you've been using the machinery to make all the aches go away.
These places tend to be full of odd humans, 1/2 the size of a normal human, who tend to war very tight clothing.

[Conscious Bob]

They're big buildings made up of rooms full of different things people use to exercise.

That's a perk?

[Champagne Socialist]

did I not mention the skinny people in tight clothing? ;-P

[Deep Black]

Sounds like about the only good thing there :)

[Conscious Bob]

did I not mention the skinny people in tight clothing? ;-P

You've never been to a Glasgow gym...

[Champagne Socialist]

You've never been to a Glasgow gym...

Ah, hey that is just not fair. There are some very slim sexy Glaswegians.

[Conscious Bob]

Ah, hey that is just not fair. There are some very slim sexy Glaswegians.

Let's just say there's a fair old mix of body types up here.

[Solipsist Mercenary]

Surely if we can invent Electric Monks to believe in things for us we can come up with some sort of robot to handle this "gym" place.....

[Champagne Socialist]

first day, wish me luck

[Deep Black]

Good luck :)

[Conscious Bob]

Roughly half ten, initial induction over, intro to colleagues and territory, unless you're hotdesking... Time for a coffee...

[Champagne Socialist]

Thanks Deep, and spot on CB, except it was tea.
The IT Gestapo hadn't got my computer sorted out, so I couldn't do any work.
I've already spotted MANY issues with their procedures I'm going to have to correct. Looks like it will be an interesting place to work.

[Deep Black]

I'd like the "couldn't do any work" bit best

[Conscious Bob]

I've already spotted MANY issues with their procedures I'm going to have to correct.

There's gonna be a whuppin.

[Champagne Socialist]

There's gonna be a whuppin.

Whuppin has begun :o Encountering the expected resistance as everyone rushes to justify their existing procedures. It's why I like to him em early and hit em hard. So now we'll go around in circles for the next few months until I inevitably get my way as they see that my way is both better and easier.


I'd like the "couldn't do any work" bit best

I found it quite frustrating :mad: Spent my time doing procurement documentation :yawn:

[Champagne Socialist]

me
|
V
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHH-------->
.....................................________
.................................../...............\
................................./..................\
................................/.....................\
-->-----------*BOOT*/.....................\*SPLUT*

*sigh*
Resistance is futile inevitable

[Conscious Bob]

They booked you on an anger management course yet?

[Champagne Socialist]

I think the world has.
It's like the pandorican all over again